Maybe you can help me out. In the classic Dispensational circles I hang out in, I often hear Psalm 83 trumpeted as a prophetic passage about the 
time of the end. Here’s what the most pertinent section says:
Do not keep silent, O God! Do not hold Your peace, and do not be still, O God! 2. For behold, Your enemies make a tumult; and those who hate You have lifted up their head. 3. They have taken crafty counsel against Your people, and consulted together against Your sheltered ones. 4. They have said, “Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation, that the name of Israel may be remembered no more.” 5. For they have consulted together with one consent; they form a confederacy against You: 6. The tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites; Moab and the Hagrites; 7. Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek; Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre; 8. Assyria also has joined with them; They have helped the children of Lot. Selah ~ Psalm 83:1-8 (NKJV)
My dispensational, premil brethren believe that this passage forecasts the time of Jacob’s Trouble [cf. Jer. 30:7]Β (and the events that will take place in Daniel’s 70th week, or the 7 year Tribulation period). In fact I just heard some dispensationalists talking about this very passage today (if you ever get into dispensational prophecy stuff, you’ll find that this passage has a prominent place at the moment). But for the life of me, I cannot understand how even dispensationalists get what they get from this passage. Clearly what we see happening in the world today aligns itself very closely to the sentiment of this passage; i.e. that the nations (more pointedly, the United Nations) would like to see the nation of Israel wiped off of the map in favor of a Palestinian state. It is these current circumstances that dispies say, “see, just like Psalm 83 said, the nations would come together with the goal of making the nation of Israel no more!”
While it is conceivable, at least, to see how dispies get to where they get to with this passage; what is troubling is how this passage seemingly is ripped right out of its context, and applied to a dispy pretext. A more normal and straightforward (even, dare I say it, “Literal”) reading of this passage would suggest something that already happened in the 7th century B.C.; and that is when the Northern Kingdom of Israel was taken into captivity by the Assyrians, and then in the 5th century B.C. this is finished off by Babylon sacking the Southern Kingdom of Judah. Isn’t this the better reading of Psalm 83, as far as its actual referent; versus reading it in a way that seeks to satisfy some complex end times schema?
What say you?
Amen, Amen, a thousand times Amen! I grew up dispensational and came out of it 3 years ago when I started my theology undergrad. I’ve been having some good quality conversations with some friends who are dissatisfied with the hermeneutic-eschatology. This is a case and point example of how dispensationalism’s claim to consistent literalism fails to really be consistent… it voids the context.
Hi Mike,
So what is your position then, on such things?
Is this your final blog address, bro?
Yes, TC … I will be here until the Lord returns π .
Bobby,
I’m covenantal, but a soft one (I’m a Reformed Southern Baptist… we don’t get out babies wet π ). I reject dispensationalism both as an eschatological perspective and a hermeneutic. I’m pretty influenced by Christopher Wright’s proposition regarding Gentile inclusion as the firstfruits of the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant, among other things. Have you read LaRondelle’s “The Israel of God in Prophecy”? His thesis is that the dispy claim to “consistent literalism” is ultimately inconsistent. It’s an even-handed treatment, steeped in Scripture, and really answered a lot of my questions. I recommend it.
Bobby,
I would agree with you that what youβve come across is simply sloppy (or, non-existent) exegesis of this passage. Unfortunately though, itβs not uncommon. Itβs far too simple to read something in Scripture and, without any actual study and time investment into the passage, jump to a pre-determined conclusion β especially in the area of eschatology! We all want to prove that our position is Scripturally tenable β wait, I take that back; most of us tend to assume that our position is tenable, and therefore we βsee itβ in places that itβs really not. This seems to be inherent to eschatology, no matter what position a person holds. As soon as we’re looking for proof-texts to explain all the unexplained nuances that we’re sure are there in any given system/position that we hold, then we’ll inevitably make mistakes with the text (or just ignore it all-together).
It would be a vastly different approach to actually study the passage in light of its historical context (as you pointed out) and come out with an (hopefully) accurate/historical interpretation β and then say (by way of application) that perhaps we see similar attitudes towards Israel today (with explanation/illustration β i.e. United Nations). And still, the actual theme of the Psalm would need to be kept in mind, which isnβt even eschatological!
@Daniel Gettemy….Thank you for sharing brother! Great stuff! @ All – Honestly the reason that I haven’t given myself to one particular position within eschatology is because I don’t want to end up looking for proof texts to support a position….I am perfectly content with not trying to force anything with the Scripture…I am loving every minute of my freedom from this burden! I am in love with the Scripture and its Author! Obviously I do lean in a particular direction within eschatology. Obviously I also read Scripture through that lens to a certain degree, but in the end, I am not controlled by that hermeneutic to the extent that I am unwilling to make changes that are necessary in staying faithful to Scripture! I don’t want to compromise the integrity of Scripture by fudging it and trying to make it fit into a system!
Secure in the Embrace of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
Chris Singer
Chris- That’s a great place to be in my opinion, and similar to my own stance. To be blunt, I don’t like talking eschatology. People get too bogged down on millenium views, the Rapture, blah blah blah blah blah. And, as other commentators have mentioned, presuppositions are never dealt with honestly. I’m much more willing to talk about eschatology in it’s broader definition (Jesus as inaugurating the kingdom, the Spirit as guiding and sealing the church, etc.).
@ Mike-Thank you for encouraging response! I am not huge on talking about eschatology myself….I used to be really into eschatology….I was really into dispensationalism….I was taught to believe that there was no other strong valid scriptural position….And that dispensationalism was the most faithful to Scripture…To be honest I was really taught not even to waste my time with anything else…I am just thankful to have freedom now! I appreciate the people who have really challenged me and who to continue to challenge me to think and speak for myself from the Scripture in the Spirit of Christ! Bobby being one of them! π I love the bride of Jesus!
Secure in the Embrace of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
Chris Singer
Thank you for all the great responses. I am wiped out from work, I have one more 12 hr shift tomorrow; then off for a long weekend (Fri, Sat, Sun); hopefully I can provide a better response to you all tomorrow evening. Glad to see some exchange taking place amongst you all though! π Night.
@Pastor Daniel,
You may or may not be surprised to find out who I heard these claims from in re. to Psalm 83; they are in “our hierarchy” π . I do agree with you on methodological and hermeneutical concerns, relative to how one comes to their interpretive conclusions per this topic. Truly, in principle, this applies across board. I’m afraid you are all too right in re. to most folks just ignoring this issue and assuming a “pan-mil” position (or agnostic approach), and I think this is something that needs to be seriously addressed amongst Evangelicals. I think hermeneutics and personal Bible study are things that need to be addressed for most Evangelicals, in fact!
And yes, in principle, there is parallel and application available with the Ps 83 passage; but certainly not direct prophetic application in our current geopolitical situation; as you note. Great points!
@Chris,
A book that helped me immensely, recently, is Richard Bauckham’s “The Theology of the Book of Revelation.” He doesn’t proof text, but provides a solid and robust case for his reading of Revelation. He has persuaded me to his position (and this after years of consideration on my part in re. to this crux interpretum issue). I would highly recommend his book to you!
@Mike,
Thanks for sharing your position further. I haven’t read LaRondelle’s book, thanks for the recommendation. I would recommend Bauckham’s book to you (see my comment to Chris). This is an always controversial issue, but like you I have abandoned my beloved Dispyism.
@Chris – I fully agree! The one thing we cannot lose sight of in all of our study of the Word is its purpose to reveal its Author to us. We’re not meant to fall in love with a “position” from the Word, but with the Lord of the Word Himself. There’s so much joy and freedom when we do that; it makes studying the Word a relational experience, rather than merely scholastic.
@Bobby – you gotta watch out for those “hierarchy” guys! π Actually, that’s one of the joys (and challenges) of pastoring in a non-denom denom. It opens the door to many ideas, and perhaps a broad spectrum (at least background-wise) from other parts of the Universal Body, but it also brings the challenge of maintaining orthodoxy in generosity (not the Maclaren version) π to one another. Thankfully, I think the “hierarchy” remain teachable; at least I try to remain that way myself.
On another note, your mention of Bauckham rang a bell in my brain: I picked up one of his little books a few years ago. It’s called “Bible and Mission”. I think it was taken from a lecture series he gave. Unfortunately I can’t remember what it was all about; now I’m going to have to go back and read it again…:-)
Pastor Daniel,
Yeah, I heard this from our brethren in So Cal π ; but they aren’t the only ones out there.
Bauckham is quite good; I haven’t read that book that you mention. The next one I want to check out is his “God Crucified.” But yes, his book on Revelation is quite challenging, in a good way π ! See you tomorrow at church.
@Pastor Daniel…Thank you for the short and and rich response….:-)
@Bobby…Thank you for the recommendation…The book has a 5 star rating on Amazon….The reviews gave a good brief overview of the book…I will probably get it some time in the near future…:-)
Chris, it really is a great little book!
And, Chris, Pastor Daniel is my pastor; he’s a great brother as you can see π !