Labels are interesting things, and I’ve spoken of this before here, so I won’t get into this too much; but I just wanted to address this issue again, a little. I’m wondering if you think the language of “Calvinist” is helpful, or do you maybe think it is too sectarian in orientation (in other words, too devisive)? Maybe using the language of ‘Reformed’ would be better, but of course this comes with its own baggage as well. Or maybe just being known as “Christian,” which I’m more than happy with, is the best way forward. Of course within the history of Christianity there are so many nuances and traditions represented within Christendom that saying “Christian” isn’t specific enough, maybe? What do you think, do you think using the label “Calvinist” is a necessary evil; or do you think its unhelpful?
Athanasian Reformed
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Bobby,
I’ve come to the point where I believe the label “Calvinist” is only helpful to describe myself to other Calvinists. Even then, I have ceased using it. There are so many of us out there that use it as a dividing point and an ivory tower from which to look down on others that using it to describe myself to them makes them think I am “one of them.”
That’s my dilemma, and it might not be yours. Labels are a two edged sword.
Steve Scott makes a good point.
I don’t think there’s anything inherently sinful about reading Calvin’s writings–The faith and insight of those who have lived before us is inspiring and instructive, no doubt.
But attaching one’s self to a specific brand of theology also seems to allow for some professing Christians to become arrogantly dismissive of others and frequently obscures the simple truth to lead many people away from a pure, un-distracted devotion to Christ.
Don’t you think?
I know that people will proclaim themselves to be Calvinist (or Lutheran or whatever) because they believe those teachings most closely resemble what the Bible actually says. At the very least, they say it gives a reference point as they interact with other believers. I can accept that they find it to be helpful but I can’t do it because I am the type of personality who will get caught up studying and defending the man’s teachings rather than Scripture itself. I would become far more “Calvinist” than I would be “Christian”.
That said, I’ll admit to being a “practical Calvinist” (apparently of the evangelical variety). My own understanding of Scripture does seem to most closely resemble what I know of his.
I know that having good doctrine is important. You and I have discussed how a poor understanding of Scripture can create a nervous wreck of a person. But, I believe that Jesus told us why soundness of teaching is crucial when He said to the Pharisees that all of Scripture is about Him. They were chastised by Him for searching Scripture with the expectation that the words themselves and perfect obedience to rules and rituals somehow held the key to eternal Life.
We have been given Scripture to bring us to the feet of Christ. But they were so busy with their own human agenda, they missed Him. That scares me, considering the aggressiveness with which some TULIP style Calvinists seem to push certain “biblical holy living” systems that override personal conviction and conscience. I thought that was a distinctly Arminian thing until recently.
We definitely want to be sure our doctrine points us back to Jesus as Lord, Savior, King, Creator, Judge, Faithful Husband, etc. instead of landing us in a whirlpool of man-centric thinking.
Our human affinity for “definitive” creeds and theses and theological works might help nail down some basics of the Christian faith for those who have little or no knowledge of Scripture. It gives the intellectually minded among us something to chew on and debate, I guess. But often, it seems that an intellectual agreement is all that is considered necessary while rotten “fruit” is frequently chucked at anyone who doesn’t have exactly the same understanding.
But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 2Corinthians 11:3
Paul not only preached the Gospel, he lived it in an extreme sense so that listeners might be able to truly grasp the Truth of Christ’s sacrifice and Lordship and the humble, grateful attitude we ought to have. According to him, living “the faith” is not complicated–but is grounded in a single-minded, real response to Christ.
I’m rambling again and wouldn’t presume to know the answer for sure, Bobby, but I have often wondered if we toy with the dangerously arrogant Corinthian attitude of “I am of Paul” when we thrust a particular label into the forefront of discussion. It can create unnecessary strife amongst the brethren and the unsaved really don’t care about such things.
But I guarantee that the way we behave toward each other (especially in our disagreement) will leave a lasting impression and give the world a vivid, full color picture of Who we say Jesus is.
I don’t really like it either, I think I use it more for rhetorical purposes than anything.
Yeah, Heather,
That’s my concern too, sectarian attitudes; to be a Christian is to be a follower of Christ, plain and simple — and it is that plain and simple, everything else is secondary, and falls under the rubrick of the “mechanics of salvation.”
Bobby: I came to this tradition through Barth’s critique of standard, Five Point Calvinism, so I self-identify strictly as Reformed.
From where I stand, “Calvinist” as a descriptor is bound up with all the theological positions Barth was overturning (e.g. the decretum absolutum and the blessed assurance that the reprobate are going to hell). You can’t be Barthian (for what it’s worth) and still be Calvinist.
Hey Darren,
My trek to the ‘Reformed’ faith is very similar to yours, then; in fact it is the only way I feel comfortable identifying as ‘Reformed’. Of course TFT used the language of Evangelical Calvinist with all the attendant critique of standard Calvinism intact . . . so in that sense I don’t mind the label, but prefer ‘Reformed’ myself.
Hey Bobby, Heather &
Hope you’re feeling well.
I remember well, 1st coming here Bobby, and saying, “yeah, I think I get it, but I still don’t know why you’d want to call yourself a calvinist. Yech”. Still, you’re the only self described calvinist that I’ve returned to read faithfully these past 6 months (add Glen and Ron to that the past 4 months). And thank God I did!
I have to ask this question, because a couple of weeks ago you drew new escatalogical lines. Today, you sound like lines in general are softening a little. Not that they aren’t important… Correct me if I’m wrong:
But you and I agree that there is one, not two truths, e.g. either there was a literal biological serpent that tempted eve that day, or not. But is that hill worth dying on? You and I agree that there is not one thing you or I can do to earn our salvation, no, not even in partial payment. That is a hill we both are prepared to die on, to defend that truth.
Why just today over at Compassion Int’l blog, someone was waxing on how child sponsorship brought love, and career to their life. Someone else retorted: “This isn’t about you! This isn’t even about lifting a child from poverty! This is about glorifying God!”
Well! I got pretty warm! I took I Cor 13 and smashed them right in the chops with it! They won’t ever…..
No I didn’t. I just shared with the blog writer how the Lord has been moving me to receive His love, drawing me into Him, and motivating me to reach out in love, out of the love He’s given me.
I tell you Bobby, I’m not kidding when I say thank God I stayed around here. I was going through a 50th birthday mini mid-life crisis through December. “What is God going to do with my next 50 years? Lord, I don’t need to just take up space.”
Now thanks to You and Ron, and Honey Combe, TFT, Jim and others here, I really am confident that God loves Me. I believed before, but lacking that Eternal Trinitarian telos perspective, I only had John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8,9 etc. For years, I have had as a last request: put on my grave marker “the disciple whom Jesus Loved”, because I had lingering doubts, depending on whatever. I neeeded to KNOW that He knows me and loves me. That sounds self-centered, but did the Lord not know that He had the Love of the Father? Was not the Eternal love within the Trinity Jesus’ motivation? Could I be motivated by any other motivation?
I’m out on a limb here, but if it is the wrong branch, why has everything changed?
OK, so as if I’ve been on topic, Should you keep the “Calvinist” appellation?
It’s pretty distinctive, especially considering how far you are out from the “mainstream” calvinist.
Personally, I think the hub bub about not labelling ourselves “I am of Paul” or “I am of Apollos” is a little over done. Did not Paul divide against the Judaizers over legalism? “I withstood Peter to his face”. Was he not willing to divide over liscentiousness in Corinth? “No, do not so much as eat with them”. There may be thousands of faith blogs out there. We could not ever hope to make sense of it all without being able to say:
That one believes in Scholasticism, that guy stems from Augustine, this other guy is a snake oil salesman. This guy’s scottish, and that guy has secretly kissed the pontif’s ring. Exactly the way, when I pass my mouse over your blogroll, you tell where these guys alegiances lie.
I’m sorry Bobby, I wrote an article again. I stopped at 2:30 am, because I doubted whether the Lord intended this to be posted. Then I came back after church.
Happy Palm Sunday!
Hosanna to the King of Kings!
Hi Daune.
I can totally relate to the “need to know” factor. And I’m also thankful for having been introduced to the Trinitarian perspective which I somehow kept missing.
Iβm out on a limb here, but if it is the wrong branch, why has everything changed?
I expect Bobby has an explanation of his own, but I wanted to offer that when God allows us to go through an intense time of testing, often things will change as certain areas become more clear and others (even some we’ve clung to with intense ferocity) become completely irrelevant.
I’ve had that experience on a much less intense level–we’re watching Craig’s dad go through it now with his own cancer experience. I’ve been in contact with a few other bloggers who also have faced crisis of some sort that has required them to take a good hard look at what is of eternal value.
It can be unnerving to have one whom you highly respect appear to do an about-face on you. If I’ve learned anything worth passing on, it is that God alone is trustworthy while even the most godly of men make mistakes.
As the Psalmist wrote–
I believed, even when I spoke,
“I am greatly afflicted”;
I said in my alarm,
“All mankind are liars.”
What shall I render to the Lord for all his benefits to me?
I will lift up the cup of salvation and call on the name of the Lord…”
I’m not insinuating that Bobby is making a mistake or lying–just pointing out that he is not the one in whom we are to place our faith.
That’s not to say that differences in belief are unimportant. They are of consequence. And sometimes the consequences of certain understandings are quite serious, especially if the foundation of one’s faith is not Christ.
I guess what I’m driving at is that we’re all growing and God’s got every one in a different place. None of us is qualified to read hearts. Only God can see clearly what He’s doing on the inside of someone else. It’s one reason I’ve backed off a lot on insisting I know someone’s label.
FWIW
Hi Bobby and Heather!
I agree Heather with what you’ve written here.
This has me a little confused:
“It can be unnerving to have one whom you highly respect appear to do an about-face on you.”
This, I agree with; however, I don’t understand if it has specific reference to something I wrote above, or if I miscommunicated.
I can only surmise that it refers to the softening of lines comment. There, I was bringing up that in Bobby’s last escatological post, he expressed how that he has always believed very strongly, his position on end times, and now his position has changed, to an also very strong conviction.
I just wondered aloud if, not the strength of the conviction, but the relative rank of it’s importance hasn’t changed .
Bobby, I just came over from Ron’s blog on Sibbes. I was going to recommend you go read it but I see you beat me to it. A excellent article.
And therein is my greater point. Our salvation is entirely packed up in Him: The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow: eternal life, by faith in Him who loves us. And also the rainbow itself in this life: We have His presence with us, I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you; we have the Holy Spirit in us to comfort us; we have access in prayer to the Throne of Grace, and we are presently raised up together, and seated in Heavenly places with Him! Other issues are important, other issues bear learning and teaching about, (and I am very capable of changing my position on end times). But Father, Son and Holy Spirit in inter-relationship of love, and in relationship with each one of us and collectively as His bride, the Church is so overarching, that the rest is details to keep us safe and in relationship(s). e.g. IF Jesus is returning in 2012, I need to know that, and why God gave one man that private interpretation to spread throughout the world. If that one man is wrong, then he does great harm to the body of Christ.
So, I believe, we have no disagreements in this post.
Heather, I have not got over to Craig’s blog in a while. I would like Craig to know we have been praying for his father, and family.
Be well!
Sorry about the confusion, Duane.
Your statement was probably fine and I’m just reading my own past experience into it. Sometimes it’s good to remind myself aloud that it’s not other people who are supposed to be my anchor π
I just wondered aloud if, not the strength of the conviction, but the relative rank of itβs importance hasnβt changed .
Ah. Good question.
Thank you for the continued prayer for Craig’s dad and family. I’ll be sure to pass the message along.
Hi Heather!
Yeah, I know what you mean. Only Jesus can hold the life boat in place while the sea rolls and roils. Bobby, the Lord has used your ministry to help me greatly; I believe irrevocably, but if you by any chance took a Jim Jones or Harold Camping turn, I would try to minister to you in word and prayer. And now, you know we are not in 100% agreement. I’m good with that, and I believe you are too. I know you know I’m wrong, and you know I’m pretty sure you’re wrong (ok, you’re more sure of yourself than am I).;) I don’t care what you say, you not going to convince me that sushi is nutritious food!
Keep it light, except where it’s heavy
I’ve followed your guys’ conversation, but it’s gotten too involved for me to respond to each of your excellent points; sorry π .