Given the season, I am going to re-read T. F. Torrance’s Incarnation, and 
will consequently be focusing on this topic for the near term. I just ordered the companion volume from Torrance, Atonement; and once I get that will be reading and subsequently working out of that for a multitude of posts here at the blog.
T. F. Torrance is considered as Evangelical Calvinist extroidinaire (at least by me), in fact he coined that language in his book: Scottish Theology. I make no qualms about much of my reliance upon TFT for his insurmountable work in the areas of christology and soteriology (and other areas too, like epistemology); he should be read by all. In my opinion, if you want to approach scripture through dogmatic lenses (and everyone does) that are fresh and proximate to the text itself, then reading Torrance will indeed help you to do that. Torrance has become a transformative figure in my own Christian walk, and I want to pass him on to others who have had less exposure. We all have teachers, we might as well make sure they are good ones!
Incarnation & Atonement are twin pillars when discussing salvation; thus these upcoming foci, provided primarily by TFT, will be nice complements to the general thrust of the blog here. Evangelical Calvinism is desirous of one thing, and that is to magnify a Christ-centered approach to how we both think and live as Christians. These series of posts will be much more material and constructive; versus the usual banter of past, which (sometimes to my shame) has often been involved in polemic theology. I look forward to reengaging Torrance’s work on “Incarnation,” and I can’t wait to get my hands on his “Atonement” (my Christmas present this year).
Hi Bobby!I hope you are feeling well, and that the little alien is on the ropes, or better, down for the count.I really appreciate the Christ-centered view you are advancing, more every day, and especially over at Rose's right now.On TFT: I have a special reason to celebrate Christmas this year different than before. The profoundness of His Sacrifice and Resurrectionhave long had a deep impact on me, not so much Christmas, but in September, reading A.B. Badger at GES Journal (Autumn 2003) impressed on me an understanding of the Eternallity of God that I had never grasped: I had always thought of God as forever and ever past, but within time, within the fabric of time. Dr Badger explained that GOD created time. I go into detail in my blog "Celebrating the INCARNATION" as I write, "His incarnation is a much bigger deal than I ever even imagined."So today I was looking for more learned info on the Incarnation when Lo! google came back with: "Space, Time, Incarnation" by TFT.I scanned down many of the links to said reference, but they all seemed to be selling the book, I could not get any info from the book.So, if you could enlighten us a little, on what TFT adds to our perspective on The Son Of God's incarnation, I should be grateful. I am definitely adding this to my reading list.In Him
Hi Duane,Yeah, I hope the little alien is breathing its last breathes too; I like the way you put it! I'm feeling relatively well, my gut is a little tied up right now; but that'll pass. I thank you for your prayers, and we also got your card in the mail; thank you, Duane, that was nice and encouraging!If you could get your hands on TFT's book here, "Incarnation," you would not be sorry. It is intense reading, but well worth it! I will definitely be reporting from it as I work through it again. Have you ever thought of eternity in Trinitarian terms vs. just temporal terms?
Hi Bobby!Yes, in fact, Jeremy Myers has a blog "The Dark Night of the Soul" which I high-jacked for one comment when I was first commenting, then apologized for such a long post. It's here: http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/2009/06/17/light-in-the-dark-night-of-the-soul/comment-page-1/#comment-248598Almost 11 years ago, I was feeling quite the failure. I awoke in the middle of the night to wrestle with the Lord. I wrote down what HE showed me, and that included the fact that Father, Son, Holy Spirit have always been; that Father has always been Father, and as my Father, HE will not fail. Same goes for you Brother BobbyDuane
Hey Duane,I'll have to check that link out.Absolutely, on the "always been;" but I had something else in mind with my question. I'll have to do a post on it, real soon.Thank you for your continued encouragement, Duane!
Hi Bobby!It's bedtime 2:30am est, but I wanted to tip toe into a little TFT, so I found Participatio, and read the article on Practical Theology. The incarnation is definitely frontline for him.I got my birthday card from my Dad today with just enough of a gift to get "Incarnation" from Amazon; so it's on it's way. I guess you've really whetted my appetite for TFT.Allow me to correct that: As I was reading about "vicarious humanity", I related that to my writing referenced above, where I realized that Father is the original Father. Father defines fatherhood. The rest of us just reflect His Fatherhood in our various imperfect ways. Hopefully we fulfill that calling better in Christ. Likewise tonight, I realized that Jesus is THE Son of Man, the 2nd Adam, The Human defined, perfected. Humanity should now be defined by Jesus Christ, not by Adam. I was thinking about how His vicarious humanity works out in our daily existence. Tonight we were decorating the Christmas tree. My 28 month old granddaughter needed help hanging ornaments, so she held the ornament, while I, my arms around her held the hook and hung it on the branch. Remembering that, I imagined standing inside of Jesus' flowing robe, facing out, His arms reaching around me and doing whatever work needs to be done through me, or for me. I have a gift for visualizing abstracts like that, but is it correct? I think it is.Good Night
Happy birthday, Duane! I'm excited that you'll be reading Incarnation. I have some posts on vicarious stuff, let me dig up those links. It is even more developed and tied to the Incarnation than you might think.
Hi Bobby!Thanks for the Happy B-day.I'm enjoying the TFT in your posts. I just read the Molnar post, typed up a lengthy response here, and hit close button by accident. DOH!!!!My wife & I, in our first church together (independent "full gospel") enjoyed a seminar called "Exhange LIfe". I believe it was reformed. It proposed a life lived out "in Christ" as our vicarious life. Unfortunately, the pastor took it and twisted it into his own image (that's the version my wife got). That's why she will to this day not have anything to do with a truly evangelical church (even though this was not). I never got any further in understanding how to appropriate this understanding, or is it more of a passive waiting on the Lord to work out His will.And so, as dogma meets praxis, we come to today's trial:Bobby you asked us to let you know if there is anything you could pray for us about. I fear I am going to miss a blessing because of my attitude which I have not been able to turn. I am required to work at the plastics factory 12 hours on Christmas day. My self-talk is that there is no reason that they have to require us to work through Christmas. Even Scrooge gave Bob Cratchet the day off. But the issue is my bitterness, which I know is wrong. The Lord could turn this situation in a moment, so He msut intend a blessing, but instead of opening my hands to receive, I'm whining about missing the day with my wife and daughter and two little granddaughters. Bobby, (and anyone out there) Please pray that the Lord turn my heart toward Him in faith, so that I don't lose these days the only way possible to lose them: through bitterness. God Continue to Bless you and Angela,Your Brother
Duane,I'll be praying the LORD would see fit to give you that day off.In Christ
Thanks for praying for me Bobby!At this point it will take a miracle. Praying for you as well, the Lord bless your trip to SO Cal, keep your blood count up and illness free. I keep coming back to this post so as to not draw a lively post off topic. I mentioned at Rose's a ministry called "exchanged Life" which promotes yielding one's life to Christs vicarious life through us. Are you familiar with this ministry? It seems like a nexus of the Dogmatic and the Praxis that the Partipatio article argued was so important to TFT. Part of their argument is union with Christ. I was exposed to this ministry almost 20 years ago, but have been dangling with just a little bit of this understanding. If you are interested, I can give you the http//…Duane
Thanks, Duane!My blood count was way up, even higher than normal; that's definitely an answer to prayer, thank you!Yeah, give me the url; I'd like to look that site over. Have a merry Christmas, brother.
http://aelm.orgI was just at Rose's again trying to talk about Jesus' condescension. Being consecutively fully God and fully man, to what extent was Jesus limited in access to His divine powers? On a blog a few months ago it was proposed that Jesus was utterly dependent upon the Father and the Holy Spirit, exactly as we are. For example, any revelation ("behold an Israelite indeed…")would have come from the Holy Spirit, not from His omniscience. This impresses on me that He was much more Son of Man, much better 2nd Adam than I previously understood. It would also help explain why in talking of the Father, that He seemed subordinate to Him, More so than I(as one who has long adhered to the divinity of Christ) would expect Him to speak. Or have I violated the Homousion? Nah.Anyhow,Good NightMerry Christmas Bobby!
Duane,You bring up many good points, let me think them over — tired at the moment — and get back to you, maybe through a post or two.Have a merry Christmas. We just made it to So. Cal. at my moms; thanks for your prayers, they are working, Duane!In Christ
I like the comments by Duane Watts – he wonders if he is 'violating the homoousion' ! Like me, he is trying to get beyond the labels and is wondering how Christ is appropriated. One of the problems is that as good as the internet is at communication, the millieu of the Spirit is in a doxological/ministerial environment, ie the church. All i can say is that i recognize the hunger, but beyond that we enter imageless and almost wordless relations of the Trinity, and i don't think we can give more than pointers, as answers , because, as it was said in Participatio , Torrance had lots of tacit understanding of our Lord, now taken with him. All i can say is that the more i recognize the trinity and priority of Grace, the 'bigger' and more 'generous' God becomes, and the smaller, almost more dispensible, i become – especially when pietistical and Pelagian notions are constrained or withheld ! Contrib. Tim Parker
Tim,I like Duane's comments too! I think there is the mystery, that you mention; but I also think we can actually "know" real things about the Trinity (albeit recognizing the fecundity and ineffability of God's life). I think this is what the Incarnation is all about, we've been brought into the life of God in Christ by the Spirit; one of the benefits/gifts is an intimate "knowledge" of God (albeit limited to the degree that we can understand). You say alot on pietism, I agree, it is a problem at a doctrinal level (i.e. Schleiermacher — "theological liberalism"); but I also think that term identifes a certain pathos that is actually healthy (i.e. a heart felt love for the LORD, of course grounding this love in and out of Christ's love for the Father for us as our mediator I Jn 4:19). So in one sense I would still identify as a pietist, in another way I wouldn't.
Hi Bobby, Certainly I would use the word Pathos, denoting the love of Jesus working in the 'heart' of the believer. But hang on! Would I? I thought this overflowing for others through Jesus was Agape? You hear from this I have only a 'child's knowledge'. The freedom we have to love others which comes from the 'heart' or 'spirit' of Jesus working on our 'hearts' or 'spirits' is what i take Christianity to be all about. THis is love which comes about from without. Pelagianism I think confuses this with a reality from within ourselves alone, or somit. Whereas as you have said elsewhere, Christ is our objective and subjectively realised reality – for us, or somit! Also, I personally have only ever meet the term pietism, pejoratively, in the , negative ussage ,within dogmatics eg. the way Karl Barth has taken up its usuage. If this love of Christ is both other and within us by the Spirit, then i am continually trying to 'accomodate' myself to a reality which is not my own, but which beckons me with its promptings and its urgings and my sheer unmerited unworthiness and his trustworthiness. Therefore i see myself, all the while, willing to push at doors, trying to open the odd door or two, as the day goes along, and if, voila! , i 'get thro' , then i simply suppose the Lord, our leading 'Light' is ahead of us on those 'openings'! That is my simple life, but is it really too simple?
Tim,Yeah, some of this is semantics. The struggle you describe is simply the one that Gal. 5:17 denotes; we all have the bent to walk in the flehs instead of the Spirit. So we are definitley in a battle. I appreciate your openness, Tim. And when I say pathos I mean to say that this emotion this motivation is grounded in Christ's humanity for us by the Spirit . . . so we live out of the "pathos" of His life.